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	<title>Comments on: Prisoners&#8217; votes &#8211; ECHR&#8217;s judgement just the tip of the iceberg</title>
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		<title>By: toryrascal</title>
		<link>http://toryrascal.com/2009/11/30/echr-voting/#comment-401</link>
		<dc:creator>toryrascal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:22:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toryrascal.com/?p=639#comment-401</guid>
		<description>Let it never be claimed that I do not respond to comments; as Ben pointed out, in trying to make a wider point about Labour&#039;s dreadful failure to get a grip on the prison system I allowed a number of factual and conceptual inaccuracies to creep into my original post.  The post has been reasonably extensively re-written to concentrate on my core concern about rehabilitation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let it never be claimed that I do not respond to comments; as Ben pointed out, in trying to make a wider point about Labour&#8217;s dreadful failure to get a grip on the prison system I allowed a number of factual and conceptual inaccuracies to creep into my original post.  The post has been reasonably extensively re-written to concentrate on my core concern about rehabilitation.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Gray</title>
		<link>http://toryrascal.com/2009/11/30/echr-voting/#comment-400</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 15:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toryrascal.com/?p=639#comment-400</guid>
		<description>In fairness to the ECtHR, they did _not_ rule that prisoners should, as a general rule, be allowed to vote, rather that the rules governing disenfranchisement are presently conceived in such a wide and arbitrary sense that they don&#039;t pay any heed to proportionality.  (The case is Hirst v UK and the judgement is at para. 41 http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?action=html&amp;documentId=787485&amp;portal=hbkm&amp;source=externalbydocnumber&amp;table=F69A27FD8FB86142BF01C1166DEA398649)

For example, if you&#039;re a few days away from release on a minor conviction, is it really fair to impose the bar?  On the face of it, possibly, but that would ignore the problems we have in actually getting the deserving out of the door on parole - two people could go in at the same time for the same offence serving the same sentence, exhibit the same degree of remorse and rehabilitation and leave at different times simply because of the administrative burdens imposed on convening parole hearings.  One gets released a few days before the GE, the other the day after the GE.  Is that really fair when the release owes little to his actual crime?

Also, importantly, on the facts of that case the claimant (Hirst, now released, who blogs over at Jailhouslawyer), was convicted of manslaughter via diminished responsibility (loosely a lesser form of insanity).  He had already served the punitive part of his custodial tariff.  The only reason he was being retained was because he was viewed to be a threat to the public.  The basis of claim was that as he was no longer there to be punished, it was disproportionate to deny him the vote.

You also couldn&#039;t get a ECHR claim against the government for the failures of the prison service, because:

1. The Convention only covers human rights, not economic and social entitlements;

2.  The appropriate challenge would be under European Union Law, and it would be a rather federalist move to suggest that prison policy should be within the legislative competence of that body.

As for the Armed Services, well we&#039;ll see some potentially very interesting claims given the decisions earlier this year.

Thomas, we&#039;re unlikely to get a serious discussion on Human Rights here in Britain because most commentators don&#039;t even appear to know how the HRA actually works.  How do you propose we &quot;build on&quot; the ECHR?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In fairness to the ECtHR, they did _not_ rule that prisoners should, as a general rule, be allowed to vote, rather that the rules governing disenfranchisement are presently conceived in such a wide and arbitrary sense that they don&#8217;t pay any heed to proportionality.  (The case is Hirst v UK and the judgement is at para. 41 <a href="http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?action=html&amp;documentId=787485&amp;portal=hbkm&amp;source=externalbydocnumber&amp;table=F69A27FD8FB86142BF01C1166DEA398649)" rel="nofollow">http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?action=html&amp;documentId=787485&amp;portal=hbkm&amp;source=externalbydocnumber&amp;table=F69A27FD8FB86142BF01C1166DEA398649)</a></p>
<p>For example, if you&#8217;re a few days away from release on a minor conviction, is it really fair to impose the bar?  On the face of it, possibly, but that would ignore the problems we have in actually getting the deserving out of the door on parole &#8211; two people could go in at the same time for the same offence serving the same sentence, exhibit the same degree of remorse and rehabilitation and leave at different times simply because of the administrative burdens imposed on convening parole hearings.  One gets released a few days before the GE, the other the day after the GE.  Is that really fair when the release owes little to his actual crime?</p>
<p>Also, importantly, on the facts of that case the claimant (Hirst, now released, who blogs over at Jailhouslawyer), was convicted of manslaughter via diminished responsibility (loosely a lesser form of insanity).  He had already served the punitive part of his custodial tariff.  The only reason he was being retained was because he was viewed to be a threat to the public.  The basis of claim was that as he was no longer there to be punished, it was disproportionate to deny him the vote.</p>
<p>You also couldn&#8217;t get a ECHR claim against the government for the failures of the prison service, because:</p>
<p>1. The Convention only covers human rights, not economic and social entitlements;</p>
<p>2.  The appropriate challenge would be under European Union Law, and it would be a rather federalist move to suggest that prison policy should be within the legislative competence of that body.</p>
<p>As for the Armed Services, well we&#8217;ll see some potentially very interesting claims given the decisions earlier this year.</p>
<p>Thomas, we&#8217;re unlikely to get a serious discussion on Human Rights here in Britain because most commentators don&#8217;t even appear to know how the HRA actually works.  How do you propose we &#8220;build on&#8221; the ECHR?</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Byrne</title>
		<link>http://toryrascal.com/2009/11/30/echr-voting/#comment-399</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Byrne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:55:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toryrascal.com/?p=639#comment-399</guid>
		<description>One of the reasons I&#039;m looking forward to a next possible Conservative government is the British Bill of rights to build upon the ECHR, then we might get some serious dicussion here in Britain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the reasons I&#8217;m looking forward to a next possible Conservative government is the British Bill of rights to build upon the ECHR, then we might get some serious dicussion here in Britain.</p>
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		<title>By: sonofmuff</title>
		<link>http://toryrascal.com/2009/11/30/echr-voting/#comment-398</link>
		<dc:creator>sonofmuff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:08:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toryrascal.com/?p=639#comment-398</guid>
		<description>Excuse me...?!!!?? Prisoners being given the right to VOTE???!!!
NEVER! 
IF you are in Prison for breaking the law, you should NOT expect to have a say in the affairs of the law abiding people you have shown so little respect for!
F**k of Europe! &amp; F**K off Jack Straw! :-(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excuse me&#8230;?!!!?? Prisoners being given the right to VOTE???!!!<br />
NEVER!<br />
IF you are in Prison for breaking the law, you should NOT expect to have a say in the affairs of the law abiding people you have shown so little respect for!<br />
F**k of Europe! &amp; F**K off Jack Straw! <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':-(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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